Talk:Approval (Inquisition)
Numerical values 1 Greatly (Dis)approves 4 (Dis)approves 20 Slightly (Dis)approves 1 (Dis)approves 5 Slightly (Dis)approves So on a point scale, GA/GD = 20/-20, A/D = 5/-5, SA/SD = 1/-1 I've seen these values mentioned elsewhere, but its always been hearsay. So just to show I didn't pull these numbers out of my ass, here's how I worked it out. I used Solas starting from the beginning, gaining no approval during the Prologue, so he would be at 0 in Haven. I knew he would not talk about himself if approval was too low. So I was able to work out that, at 5 Slightly Disapproves, he clams up. Going back to zero and getting him 1 Disapproves also made him clam up. Gaining one SA after that, he would freely speak of himself. So that settled that, 1 (Dis)Approve 5 Slightly (Dis)Approves. Going back to zero, I didn't use him at all. Making the templars allies gave him exactly 1 Greatly Disapproves. Then I used his dialogue options and had to take him on a few leftover quests in the Hinterlands, being sure to only ever gain Slightly Approves. After each one gained, I asked him to tell me about himself. After 16 Slightly Approves, he finally obliged. This confirmed that 1 Greatly (Dis)Approves = 20 Slightly (Dis)Approves. I've been able to determine that zones exist, similar to DA:O. For Solas, -4 to 34 is what I've been calling Neutral, in my own notes. 35+ is warm until I figure out the next threshold for him. At -5 his disposition changes, and he greets with more sarcasm and is more curt when saying goodbye. At -30 a disapproval scene began with Solas. I've also been able to determine that -75 is maximum disapproval for him, and it does not lock in place like DA:II. I believe everyone's ranking is similar, but there may be discrepancies. For example, Blackwall's disposition changes at -1 and at -30 a scene triggered in which he stormed out of the barn and my game. I didn't have a chance to ask him to stay, either. I've triggered a scene with Vivienne at -30 but she didn't leave. These differences would explain why there is no in-game indication of approval.--TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 19:58, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :I can initially confirm some of this through the use of memory editing software. I can actually see the number ticking up and down if I search closely enough. So far I have seen +1/-1 for SA/SD and -5 for Disapproves. However, I'm not sure we should be assuming this applies all across the game just yet. We might see a GA/GD that's 15 or 30, or an A/D that's 8 or 10, or other values. :That said, I am looking for help getting the approval template edited to make room for these numbers now that I can actually see them. And I'll try to help you clean up this page. :) --Eleri (talk) 22:06, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :After further fiddling, I'm seeing caps of -75 to +125 for Solas with disposition changes at -5 and +75. I've added this information to Solas/Approval. It will take some time to find everyone's caps, disposition change points, and such... I need to have a quick save where I can have a conversation with lots of approval changes so I can find the value to begin with. Solas is easier than most since he's so chatty right at the start of the game and loves you for asking him questions.... I'll keep working on it. --Eleri (talk) 22:52, January 10, 2015 (UTC) ::Fair enough, but the 1/5/20 has been holding up for me so far. I've got to do it the old fashioned way >:| Screenshot Oh and if you get someone to modify the template, see if you can get em to add some color, like this , or lighter. I really think it needs to stand out some more. The approval pages look so washed out. At least this way it looks somewhat like it does in-game. --TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 23:08, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :::Good suggestion. I loved how colorful DA2's approval pages were. I'm comfortable enough with editing that I can add the color, just not enough to do the dynamic color changes based on positive and negative as I've mentioned at Template Talk:Approval3. I'll fiddle with that after I get these disposition breakpoints found. Found Varric's. In the process of finding Cassandra's. Then have to go recruit the others in this new save file I made just for this. Work work work. Ha! --Eleri (talk) 23:39, January 10, 2015 (UTC) ::::Nice. And for what it's worth, I think the smallcaps looks better--TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 23:58, January 10, 2015 (UTC) :::::I've just recruited Sera and she started at +2. I did her quest then went straight back to Haven and couldn't find her approval value until I started looking for something other than zero. Either they don't start at zero as you've mentioned, or the choices you make in their recruitment quests have hidden approval ratings attached to them (I picked the choice in the #1 position each time... it's a bit too late now for me to go back and play with other choices). It's worth looking into I think. --Eleri (talk) 00:37, January 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::::What race are you using? Everything I've done is based on a female elf.--TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 00:56, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :::::::This particular playthrough is human female. But scratch the above. Still can't find Sera's approval value. Possibly changing by unknown amounts rather than +1/+5. Will update if there's really a discrepancy and I'm not just being awful at this. --Eleri (talk) 00:58, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :Out of curiosity, how did you gauge Blackwall's disposition changing at -1 instead of -5? I'm basing my breakpoints off of how they react when you start a conversation with them. See my findings at the top of Blackwall/Approval... I'm getting -5. (Only Cole and Dorian to go!) --Eleri (talk) 03:47, January 11, 2015 (UTC) ::After recruiting him, there's a romance option "You're strangely charming" Even one Slightly Disapproves, and it goes away and is replaced by another option "What's wrong with you?" it also cuts off access to asking him about himself. And I got him to leave by choosing these options. During the first cutscene in Haven, I chose the "Some worship me" line which gives -5. Then I conscripted the templars, which gave another -5. And then during the ceremony I chose the "I'll do it for my own power" which gave -20. I planned it that way to get exactly -30. Once Skyhold got its first set of repairs and he moved to the barn, I went to him and he was standing next to a dummy (like Cassandra is always near), got a scene with this: :::All I see is a gang of thugs led by a self-serving tyrant. ::::*Is that what you think? ::::*Do go on. ::::*If you don't like it, leave. ::Didn't matter what option I picked. He always left on his own. Codex entry gone too. Are you checking these dispositions in Haven or Skyhold?--TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 04:20, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :::My first round of checks was in Haven immediately after recruitment. I'm starting a second round of fiddling now that I finished recruiting mages/templars--lots of conversations with lots of dialogue to track. I plan to check all of them again in Skyhold as well. Maybe they'll be less forgiving after they have more time for me to let them give their opinions of me. --Eleri (talk) 04:48, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :::Checked Blackwall again in Skyhold, before and after the first set of repairs. His greetings still don't change til -5. And "What's wrong with you?" definitely isn't appearing for me at -4 but is appearing at -5. Weird that it conflicts with your findings, but it's consistent with all the other companions. --Eleri (talk) 06:18, January 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::I just double-checked Blackwall and you're right, it's -5 like the rest. I probably wrote in my notes one Slightly Disapproves when it should've been one Disapproves, and just never looked at it again until now. The crisis scene at Skyhold I'm still positive about though.--TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 16:43, January 11, 2015 (UTC) I did some research on approval by looking at the game files. All approval changes are done via ActionLogicPrefabBlueprints in DA3/designcontent/Plots/Global/Approval/. They get current value, change value (both stored in plot flags) and return the new value. Default values are stored in Systems/Plot/PlotConfiguration. Approval change values are indeed 1, 5 and 20: * A20C11343404D943AA12541CD5EC0346: 1 * 2CA05E4C5B47164EB645D543ADB703E0: 5 * 6AECB822E83F1143B353770DB4C603F7: 20 I can also confirm -30, -5, 35 and 75 thresholds, they are checked via, e.g. for Cassandra (approval plot flag 718375DD4B49134DA2D3D7FBF6760396): check_cassandra_approval_friendly, check_cassandra_approval_positive, check_cassandra_approval_neutral_or_less, check_cassandra_approval_negative, check_cassandra_approval_hostile. It seems possible to extract all quest requirements and approval changes from conversations directly from the game files. 13:14, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :Thanks for digging and confirming. Can you help me to see what you're seeing? I'm poking around in DAITools, but I don't know where you're looking to see all that. I'd like to help dig for extracting all the approval changes. --Eleri (talk) 17:05, January 11, 2015 (UTC) ::Tools - EBX Explorer 17:27, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :::Oh good, the only one I don't understand at all. Can you recommend a resource so I can learn how to interpret these hexadecimal strings? I feel like there's a lot worth knowing in e.g. 0CAEAF43 but I want to know what connections are being drawn to the ebx thing I selected. --Eleri (talk) 17:53, January 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::They are pretty much just GUIDs and numbers, either straightforward IDs or hashes. The most important ones are GUIDs, they usually reference other assets or some parts of the current asset. You can search by GUID to find these references. 18:05, January 11, 2015 (UTC) ::::You should use my method. It's more abacus-like and less confusing :D--TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 18:32, January 11, 2015 (UTC) :::::Oh, I'm still doing my brute force memory edits. But this goes even deeper, and I love the idea of being able to crack it wide open. :) With memory edits, all I can do is change a value and see what happens. With the bit Mostlyautumn is talking about, we could ditch the trial and error altogether. Only Dorian left! --Eleri (talk) 18:53, January 11, 2015 (UTC) I just want to thank you guys for doing this. I've been keeping track of the increases and decreases but not knowing the numerical values and how they relate to each other has been driving me nuts. You're all awesome. ShiftyApparition (talk) 22:08, January 12, 2015 (UTC) I've made a very basic approval viewer that loads approval info from the specified save. Let me know if there are any bugs. 20:07, January 15, 2015 (UTC) :Leliana's personal quest done: — :Leliana softened: — :This is probably about Under Her Skin, as I did complete the other one? Softening is probably correct (it was long time ago, but I believe I failed part of the softening) :Storm Coast (current): 12 :Storm Coast (total): 10 :Intended or something weird? Kewpies (talk) 22:03, January 15, 2015 (UTC) I haven't read all of this, but I believe approval does lock. I've been working on Varric's approval and while tracking down red lyrium in one area, I got approval for the first few and then nothing for the others. I've tried a few disapproval actions and haven't gotten any change. Heidirs (talk) 03:07, February 16, 2015 (UTC) :And I stand corrected. I started getting approval from Varric again. No idea why. (talk) 19:59, February 19, 2015 (UTC) Companions not starting at 0 I saw that Dorian starts at -15 if Champions of the Just was completed, but how the quest is completed should factor into it, as well. I completed that quest and conscripted the templars. I'm not sure where he started, but according to my notes, he should only be at +27 with me right now. But the Felix scene is triggered already, and it shouldn't be until +35. I'm sure Cole starts at something other than zero as well, cos his first scene triggered with me when I had him only at +15. >:| --TubbyM0ph0 (talk) 07:20, January 14, 2015 (UTC) :You're probably right. When I added that in, I had completed Champions by allowing the templars to rebuild with me. --Eleri (talk) 16:26, January 17, 2015 (UTC) Results of DA:I Approval So, in both DA:O/A and DA:II, companion approval resulted in dialog changes, romance/quit options and direct bonuses (DA:O) or skills (DA:II). In DA:I it seems like there are only dialog and romance/quit results. Are there any mechanics results from DA:I approval? Either way, I think the page should clearly state not just how approval is gained or lost, but the results of those choices. DaBarkspawn (talk) 01:06, March 5, 2015 (UTC) Yes I went on this page to find it too. I don't really care how much approval changes because often a character gains approval whan another loses some. But the mechanics is not as important as the effect. And as I don't play specially a romantic character, it it is the only result I can ignore it completely (what I am doing just now) But if it makes Iron Bull stronger it can become interesting to flatter him a bit. There's more than one and five and twenty … I'm not using any tools beyond the DAISaveGameEditor, so I've not analyzed game files and variables other than in my savegames. I can confirm that changes the result by ±1, and does that by ±5. But for there have to be either more variables or modifying factors – apparently quest-/event-dependent. I had several occurences where a changed the result by only ±10. First I thought this would depend on the companion. First doubts came, when one companion had -10 , but +20 . Now I have the case that one companion, who with +20 twice, during her personal quest only got +10. (Actually +15, because she , then another time. See Talk:Unfinished Business#Cassandra's approval.) Needs some more analysis, and I hope I remember right what caused my great approval changes. I don't think it's connected to thresholds, because ±10 appeared with around 0 approval as well as at +75. Currently I could imagine that personal favors (companion quests) only bring ±10, where greater decisions with an influence on world events are weighted with ±20. I go trying to comprehend my progression … -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cC -- 15:47, July 3, 2017 (UTC) ---- Research so far. I've listed all great (dis)approvals, I had so far. ; Blackwall * Memories of the Grey#Results – 2 found with him in the party – : +10 *2 ; Cassandra * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : +20 * Guilty Pleasures#Companion Approval – Book given – : +20 * Unfinished Business#Approval – 1 target eliminated with her in the party – : +10 (plus an additional : +5) ; Dorian * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : -10 * In Your Heart Shall Burn#The Ceremony – "Corypheus must be stopped." – : +20 ; Iron Bull * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : +20 ; Sera * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : -10 ; Solas * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : -20 ; Varric * In Your Heart Shall Burn#Regroup at the Chantry – Rescued all townspeople – : +20 ; Vivienne * Vivienne/Approval#Initial Conversation – "We need the Circle restored." – : +20 * Vivienne/Approval#After In Hushed Whispers / Champions of the Just – "We need the Circle back." – : +20 ; Cole is a little more complicated, especially his changes during Champions of the Just – those are not completely documented, yet * Cole/Approval#You've done odd things. – Finished all 5 – : +20 I checked his approval before and after certain points during CotJ, and compared my results with the changes listed on the quest article. There's only one, a great disapprovement with my decision. Before the quest he had no approval in my savegame, after it (recruited during the war room scene) it was -11. There are two possible options for this: * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : -20 * : +5 *2 – For the recruitment and something else * : -1 – For … something = -20 +5 +5 -1 = -11. Or * Champions of the Just#Return to the Great Hall – Templars as allies – : -10 * : -1 – For … something, perhaps his strange look when he leaves Therinfal Redoubt after Barris says "The templars will come. I hope your stronghold is ready.", or for my not so nice comment in the war room "Get down from there!" (the war table). = -10 -1 = -11. So it's more complicated than thought at first: * Different companions react different for the same quest (CotJ: Sera -10, Solas -20) * Different companion quests give different results for the same companion (Cassandra: +20 for the book, +10 for Unifinished Business) What shall we do with this information? -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cC -- 18:47, July 3, 2017 (UTC) :Wow, great research. What I would do is gloss over a lot of the details and change the page to say that great approval is a range from +/-10 to +/-20. If there was some categorical or deterministic way of determining what the added bonus was, we could describe that. But since they appear to be effectively random, we'd have to list each one as you have done and I think that's too much detail for a general page like this. You might consider amending the individual approval pages to include the amount within the range, though. DaBarkspawn (talk) 18:59, July 3, 2017 (UTC) :: Thanks for your thoughts! :: Of course I wouldn't put all this detail on the overview page. Implement the values on each companion's approval page might be an idea. But what about the quests? Shouldn't it be there, too? And how to do the formatting? I think, this needs more opinions than only our humble two ones … :: I've opened a discussion for this! -- -- You talkin' to me? -- cC -- 08:14, July 5, 2017 (UTC) ::: Perhaps both is the right answer, on the companion page and on the quest page? Then, just a range on this page. I do think that whatever you put on the companion and quest page should reflect the net computation (e.g., for your last Cole example, -11) but not the computation itself. DaBarkspawn (talk) 14:42, July 5, 2017 (UTC)